Episode 9: Saying NO when something doesn't feel right

Prompted by a recent real-life situation, in this episode I share my thoughts on saying no, making tough decisions, navigating disappointment, trusting yourself, and working at your own pace.

Episode shoutouts
Ashley Killam
Emily Steinwall
Marcus Grant

Please visit caitnishimura.com for perusal scores, recordings, program notes, and more info about me and my work. Connect with me on social media: @composercait

If you have a question, submit it here and it may be answered during a future episode.

Thank you for listening! 

Transcript

00:00
Hello and welcome back to the composercait podcast. My name is Cait Nishimura and today I'm deviating a little from what I've done so far on this podcast. I am not going to be breaking down a piece of music in this episode. Instead, I'm going to unpack a topic that I've been thinking a lot about recently and I'm hoping that this will be applicable to a pretty wide array of people. If you follow me at composercait on Instagram,

00:26
You may have seen what I shared in my stories a few days ago about someone who wanted to commission me and had an extreme reaction when I said no. What started out as a simple, declined request turned into an absolutely outrageous situation and resulted in me having to block this person on all social media and even on multiple email accounts so that I could make sure that they didn't continue harassing me or anyone else in my community.

00:52
It was wild, so much disrespect and cognitive dissonance and a true masterclass in how not to communicate with people, especially prospective collaborators. I had so many interesting conversations with people in my DMs, my messages, while this was happening, and I started to feel more and more like this situation is worth talking about more broadly and that there are valuable lessons here that many people could benefit from hearing about. So that's what I've decided to do for this week's episode.

01:21
I'm going to briefly explain what happened and then elaborate on my stance on things and outline some key takeaways that I think are worth considering. Firstly, let me just state that I'm not here to put this particular person on blast. I'm keeping this anonymous because what I want us to focus on is the behaviour and perspectives and lessons that can be learned from all of this, not the specific person.

01:47
That said, I do feel a slight sense of duty to protect other composers and musicians from potentially going through the same thing in the future with this person, so if anyone would like more details, feel free to reach out to me. So here's what happened. A man reached out to me over four years ago to inquire about a commission. At the time, I was already overbooked and overcommitted. I had commissions and residencies and things booked over two years in advance.

02:15
So I said, thank you for your interest and your support, but I'm not currently able to take on your project given my current workload right now and for the foreseeable future, but feel free to reach out again in the future and maybe the situation will be different. Keep in mind, this was before the pandemic started, so things really did change from that point on and a lot of the projects I'd committed to got postponed or changed or shifted somehow. I started to feel the weight of all of this and I was experiencing really intense burnout and stress.

02:45
trying to keep my business running by myself, feeling disconnected from myself a bit while trying to fulfill things for other people. So in mid 2022, I made the decision to stop taking new commissions for a while, just to give myself a break to recalibrate a bit and decide how I wanted to move forward. Although I have completed several projects within this time, I have declined every single commission request since then, including requests from...

03:12
cherished friends and colleagues and people that I would really really like to work with. My commitment to my personal goals was stronger than the temptation to give into the pressure or genuine interest in taking more things on. I'm really proud of myself for setting and keeping this boundary. Doing so has allowed me more space to explore other interests of mine, musical and non-musical, and it has afforded me the opportunity to focus on my health and catching up on lots of other things.

03:40
including getting the business side of things in order, since there was a ton of exponential growth in the first few years that I was really unprepared for. All of this is to say that my approach to collaborative work has changed in the past few years. And when I do embark on collaborative projects now, I'm very mindful of the relationships that I give myself to, and I'm much more confident in setting the parameters for our work together to make sure that everything feels aligned and mutually respectful and just good all around.

04:09
I'm very fortunate to be in the position of being able to be more selective about what work I agree to, and I'm very grateful for that. So this person reached out to me again last week with the same request as four years ago. This time I said thank you again for your interest in my music and thanks for coming back to follow up. Unfortunately, right now I'm not taking commissions at all due to a number of reasons.

04:33
but I did include links to a few other pieces in my catalog that might have been suitable for this person to check out if he was interested. The response I got should have been a red flag already, but it was actually the most sane one compared to what happened afterwards. In this first response, this person said he was absolutely baffled that I'm not taking commissions and that I said no to him again and that I wouldn't even consider his project.

05:01
and he tried to convince me to have a Zoom meeting so that he could explain more about what he wanted. At this point, I was already debating, just not replying at all, since I already made my decision very clear and I offered some alternatives, but I decided to offer a more thorough response in case it helped him understand that it was nothing personal and just explain my reasoning for not taking commissions. So I explained in more detail why I'm taking a break from commissions right now and that since he last reached out,

05:29
I have completed over 20 commissioned works, 12 for band and 8 chamber or solo pieces, plus a bunch of arrangements. Now everyone works at their own pace, but to me, this is a significant amount of commissioned work and definitely warrants a break if I feel that that's what I need. I also offered a list of other music for his instrument by other living composers. This list was compiled by my friend Ashley Killam. Thank you, Ashley. You are the greatest.

05:56
and I asked this person to consider that if he really is interested in supporting me and my music, then he needs to respect the way I work because his email was essentially implying that I was crazy to not accept this opportunity. This did not go over well. He replied by saying, well, you've obviously got a lot of complications in your life and continued to defend himself and just share how disappointed he was that I turned him down. He said he's already heard of all the composers I

06:25
that he's not interested in playing any of my other pieces, and he used language that was very passive aggressive and insensitive, not to mention unprofessional. I've been saying no to all commission requests, regardless of who they're from, but it was clear that I made the right call with this one, because this did not sound like the kind of energy that would be compatible with mine anyway, even if I were taking commissions. I stopped replying to his messages at that point, but I was reflecting on how so many

06:55
saying no is not an option unless we have a really really good reason and even then that it's risky to say no, especially in industries such as music, arts and entertainment, but really this is a widespread problem throughout all of society, I think, and I was feeling inspired to share a message with other musicians and creative people in my network, so I took it to Instagram and I made a short 15 second video that said this.

07:25
If someone invites you to collaborate on a project that doesn't feel right for you, you can say no, and you don't owe anybody an explanation beyond whatever you're willing to share at the time. Just a reminder. I got a lot of positive feedback from this video, and it was a great conversation starter. I was really happy with that because I heard from several people that this is something they've been struggling with, and that they appreciated hearing this reminder from me.

07:53
Other artists started sharing my video with captions like, No means no. No is a complete sentence. You don't owe anyone a reason for your no and that kind of thing. I got a comment from Emily Steinwall who is a truly fantastic musician and composer. Check out her album, Welcome to the Garden. It is really a masterpiece. Emily said,

08:15
Saying yes to things you don't align with will only bring more opportunities not in alignment. It's important to be deliberate with our time and energy so the universe knows what kind of opportunities to send your way. I really loved that perspective and I fully agree. Then I got this comment from that person that I said no to about the commission. He commented this on my video. True, as long as you realize that very often that opportunity won't ever come back. And here's what I wrote.

08:44
in response to that. Thank you for illustrating the exact reason why I shared this video. The mindset in your comment is part of the reason that many artists feel pressured to say yes to everything, especially early in their careers, out of fear of losing opportunities or burning bridges by saying no. The mindset I encourage instead is one of fervent self-belief, trust, and integrity. Saying yes to opportunities just because of the threat of them being taken away.

09:13
is not the path to creative abundance, success and fulfillment. Now I thought that was a pretty good reply, but later the same person commented again, there's an old saying you might want to keep in mind. It goes, temptation will lean on the doorbell, but opportunity may only knock once. I replied with this, I am not interested in old sayings that perpetuate outdated and harmful ways of thinking.

09:39
I'm encouraging my community to shift from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset, one in which there are ample opportunities for all. If you're not interested in my perspective, kindly stop leaning on my door. Thank you." I was being a little bit cheeky with the door part, but I felt that I was still being much more respectful and professional than I could have been, all things considered, and above all else, I was still just trying to get my message across to others who might see these comments.

10:05
that I really believe that he's wrong about opportunity only knocking once. I wholeheartedly disagree with the concept of dangling opportunities over others and threatening to take them away if we don't jump at them immediately. That's just not how things need to go. At this point I had some other people coming into the comment section to help try to clarify my message, defend me, and take some of the pressure off of me having to go back and forth with this guy.

10:30
I just have to say to those people, you are truly the best. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate it so much and you deserve so much better than how this dude treated you for sticking up for me. It got kind of intense. He said, you make me wish I'd never come to your door, which made me laugh out loud. But he also sent me a series of private emails threatening to never play my music again. He also said similar things to others in the comments about how he doesn't care that I said no, there's plenty of fish in the sea, bigger and better ones too.

10:59
and that he's more than happy to not play my music if I so desire. He just kept going and going, twisting my words and the words of others, insulting my friends and colleagues, claiming to be better than all of us anyway, and literally going back on every single thing he'd previously said about me and my music in his initial contact. He swung so hard, from loving my music so much that he wanted me to write more, to threatening to never play it again because I declined his request and shared a perspective that he didn't like. It was really kind of crazy.

11:29
hard to fathom how it escalated so quickly and so intensely. I blocked him everywhere, so it finally stopped. I started posting some of these comments on my Instagram stories, and I got replies from people who couldn't believe that I had to deal with this, people commiserating with how much of an overreaction can come from someone being disappointed and not knowing how to regulate their emotions, and even some messages from people who knew the person I was talking about.

11:55
and they told me that he'd been banned from some Facebook groups for a pattern of harmful behaviour. So it looks like it was all for the best that we didn't end up working together, because I think it would have become clear at some point along the journey that he was not a compatible collaborator for me anyway. My music is so intentional and full of love and gratitude and joy and patience, and my goal is to connect and empower and inspire, and it sounds like he wouldn't have been able to accurately represent any of that with...

12:24
his attitude anyway. I am grateful to have received some messages from people who feel even more strongly about wanting to play my music as a result of seeing me handle this situation, and I really appreciate that kind of feedback, it means a lot. I'm gonna share one of these comments that I feel really sums things up nicely, and I share this with permission. This is from Marcus Grant, who is also a composer and multifaceted musician. Marcus said,

12:53
It's disappointing to see someone throw such a childish temper tantrum just because they didn't get what they want, threaten the person who turned them down, and then claim they never even wanted the very thing they specifically asked you for. It's also beyond silly, to put it nicely, to then claim they'll never play your music again, as if that's some devastatingly horrible consequence for you knowing how to set your own boundaries. There's something really cool about seeing

13:21
how you've chosen to communicate about this. If this is how you communicate through your words and actions, including how clear you are, how articulate you are, and how gently you reaffirm your boundaries and spin the message to uplift your audience on your own platform, it would be so easy to tell you're a high value composer who can communicate beautifully through your music, even if I had never heard your music before.

13:45
Isn't that just the most validating, supportive message in response to all of this? Thank you, Marcus. This was just the kind of message that I needed. And for those of you who haven't heard Marcus Grant's music, definitely check it out. His website is msgrantmusic.com. For the record, I am okay. I am not hurt by all those ridiculous comments. I'm just frustrated and kind of exhausted.

14:10
Luckily, I have a pretty solid sense of self-worth, I have good self-esteem, I feel confident about myself and my work and the life that I'm building, but it made me think, not everyone is in this position. Lots of people are still navigating the journey of believing in themselves and feeling okay about what they're doing, how they show up in the world, having people question the decisions that they make. So this kind of toxic behaviour has the potential to do real damage to other people, and

14:40
I became immediately enraged and passionate about wanting to make a difference for others when I started thinking about just how prevalent this mindset is in the music industry and how common this kind of behavior is. So that's what prompted me to share this in podcast format, a long form content option compared to what's possible to share on social media. So let's get into some of the concepts here that I think are important to consider. The first one is saying no.

15:08
This was the original message that I was trying to get across in my Instagram video before all the other chaos happened. There is a really problematic viewpoint in many sides of the music industry and many other industries as well that if you say no to an opportunity, you're burning a bridge and that opportunity will never come back to you. There's this fear that, for example, if you're a performer and you get an offer to sub with an orchestra and you turn it down,

15:35
the orchestra manager will just go to the next person on the list, and if that person says yes, they'll become the go-to person every time the opportunity comes up and you won't ever be asked again. In the theatre world, if you say no to a role that doesn't suit you or a contract that's too long or too far away, there's this threat from higher-up people and sometimes even fellow performers that declining that opportunity might mean never being invited back for any role at all. But then there's also the concern that if you accept a role that doesn't align with what you're hoping to do more of,

16:04
you might just get typecast in that role and never get to branch out. So these decisions can be really, really difficult and uncomfortable, and I don't think this gets talked about openly enough. We have all been through something like this where we're faced with a tough decision, and in my experience, the more successful or established you become, the harder and more frequent those decisions come up. So...

16:28
all the more reason to think about this and develop the skills needed to handle these situations well. From my perspective, part of the way to do this is to learn how to tune into your own inner voice and actually listen to it and trust it. When an opportunity comes up, a lot of us sort of panic and say yes because we feel like we have to, and then end up regretting it later or having a really hard time following through.

16:55
And it would have been better to just take a second and think it through and make the decision that feels right for you rather than the one that you think others are expecting of you. Sometimes part of the issue is the fear of disappointing others. And if this is something that you struggle with, you're not alone. This is a huge issue and it's super common. So don't feel bad if this is something that you have a hard time with. But I really do encourage you to think about this and see if you can reframe things or shift your perspective a bit because

17:23
When I learned to let go of the fear of disappointing others, I was able to find a sense of ease and peace and freedom that I had not been able to experience before. So here's the thing, disappointment is a normal part of the human experience. We all feel disappointed sometimes when things don't work out the way we'd hoped, if someone lets us down, sometimes we let ourselves down.

17:48
It's okay to feel disappointed sometimes, and it's also okay to do something that causes someone else to feel disappointed. This doesn't make you a bad person. Learning to tolerate disappointment in others as a result of upholding your boundaries or values or priorities is a really important emotional skill to develop. This goes for personal life, social life situations too, not just professional life. If my friend invites me to do something and I'm busy or I'm just not up for it or whatever the reason is,

18:17
Maybe saying no is going to be disappointing for my friend. Learning to be okay with that and keep the communication flowing is really healthy and important. Over time, it gets easier and the people in your life might start to be more understanding too, because it's on them to also learn to manage their disappointment. The moral of the story here is don't say yes to something just because you're afraid to disappoint someone else. If you do, it's very likely that you're going to be the person who's disappointed.

18:46
and that's just not being kind to yourself. There's all these buzzwords these days about self-care and most people think that self-care is like bubble baths and wine nights and letting yourself unwind however you need to and that's definitely all part of it, but I also think that it's learning how to stand your ground and make decisions that align with you. That's really taking care of yourself in the long term. I mentioned learning to cultivate trust and patience and listening to your inner voice.

19:14
and how that can help you make better decisions. This is a huge topic, but if I'm gonna suggest that you can say no to something that doesn't feel right for you, you have to first know what feels right for you. And for some people, this can be tricky. Some of the ways that I've worked on this are through journaling, building a mindfulness practice, and slowing down. I also feel that I have learned...

19:37
most of life's most valuable lessons from nature and maintaining a relationship with the natural world, so that's important for me too. When something upsetting happens or a big decision comes up, you need to be able to identify how you're feeling. Sometimes this is where people get stuck. If you don't know how you feel about something, it's really hard to make an informed decision or ask for what you need. Journaling helps me make sense of my thoughts and feelings.

20:05
so that when I meet with someone or have to speak about something, I've already sorted through some of the scattered thoughts and complicated feelings and processed things enough to be able to approach a situation with a lot more clarity. I like to handwrite things in my journal, but I know people who do digital journaling on their computer, or you can even just do it on your phone in the Notes app, or out loud if you prefer, with voice notes if that's more comfortable for you than writing it down.

20:34
The more you practice this, the easier it is to hear your own voice when something stressful happens and be able to act on intuition or just know that you're staying true to yourself. Again, with the buzzwords, mindfulness and meditation have kind of become these terms that are thrown around and have lost their meaning a little bit through trends and things. But at the core, there is something really helpful there. Learning to slow down and tune in and pay attention to your thoughts and know that you are separate from your thoughts.

21:03
learning to pause before taking action, to take a moment before jumping to conclusions or panicking about what to do. I have really grown in this way since prioritizing, building a more consistent mindfulness practice in my life through forest therapy and mindful walking and meditation. The whole sit down and don't think about anything approach to meditation does not work for everybody, myself included, so.

21:28
I just encourage you to find a method that feels good for you and stick with it and see what unfolds. We live in a super fast-paced society, and it can feel like there's a lot of pressure to act quickly and never hesitate. Hustle culture has been really damaging for a lot of us. It can lead to burnout and sickness and mental health issues. We all work at our own pace. I have 40-something pieces published in my catalog right now, and I've been doing this full-time for just six years.

21:56
I know other composers who have fewer than this, I know others who have double or triple or quadruple this amount in even less time. Everyone has their own pace of working, and not every artist is able to make art full time. It's okay if you have another job and you only create in your off time. It's okay if you balance parenthood or partnership alongside your art. It's okay if you go all in for

22:22
bursts of time and create as much as you possibly can and then take big breaks to recharge. There are so many ways of making this work and all of them are valid. I moved a lot faster in the first few years of my career because I did kind of crumble under the pressure and the fear of not making enough money or not wanting to disappoint anyone or being worried that I'd miss my chance if I didn't do something right away. I was also just really worried that it wasn't going to work. I had people questioning.

22:52
my decision to quit my job and go all in as a full-time artist. I've really grown in this respect since then, and now I feel free to move at my own pace and trust in the timing of the universe. I believe that what's right for me will come back when I'm ready, and if it doesn't, something else will. That guy gave me such a hard time last week with all this, like, door.

23:19
metaphor, opportunity, knocking on the door, ringing the doorbell, whatever, and I really missed my opportunity to throw another saying back at him, which is when one door closes, another one opens. Sometimes saying no to something is the right move because it means that you're available to say yes to something else. It's hard to know how things are going to go in the future, but you just have to learn to trust yourself, believe in your worth, and that if you just keep going and being who you are, good things will come to you.

23:48
I made one exception to my break from commissions in 2022, and it's because the request came from someone who was very important to me, and it was a time-sensitive request. I was asked by my former university professor and conductor of the first band that I was part of when I started university to write a fanfare to open the season that would be his final season before retirement. I had made the decision to stop taking commissions.

24:16
but the relationship with this person and the urgency of the situation were enough for me to reconsider. And I'm just so thankful that I had the space in my schedule and in my brain to create something on short notice. Had I been saying yes to everything up until that point, I would not have had room for this project to make it happen that quickly. The piece that I wrote for this project is called Origin.

24:39
I really love the piece, I'm really happy with it, and I'll do a whole episode about Origin at some point, but I just wanted to give that example of my decision-making in action. As another example, several years ago I was invited to collaborate with a choral conductor on a commission, and I initially said yes, I even took a deposit and made a contract, but during the process a new detail unfolded that

25:05
I was expected to set music to a poem that was already written by someone in the choir. It was a really beautiful poem, but the subject matter was just not something that I felt aligned with, and in all of my other choral pieces, I've only ever written my own text. As a songwriter, I've written my own lyrics, so I indicated this concern to the conductor and asked if they would be open to having me write original text instead.

25:31
and they said no because it was really important to them to use this text from the choir member and they really wanted to keep the subject matter to what they had in mind. So we ended up not proceeding with our project as planned. I wasn't willing to sacrifice my artistic integrity by writing about something I didn't feel connected to and thankfully this person was really wonderful to work with. They said thank you for being honest, I totally understand, and I really admire your

26:01
I offered to return the deposit, but the conductor chose instead to accept copies of all of my other choir pieces and a few other scores as well in exchange for the money that they'd already given me. So instead of abandoning SHIP entirely, they added a bunch of my music to their library, and we continued to collaborate in other ways for many years. I think this is one of the best case scenarios I can offer, but I just want to say it is possible for this kind of situation to be resolved amicably and

26:31
comfortably and respectfully for everybody involved. I wanna make it clear that everything I've shared today is just my own personal perspective and it should not be taken as career advice or life advice or anything. Everyone has a unique combination of things to take into consideration when making decisions. So what works for me might not work for you and that's totally okay. I'm encouraging people to feel empowered to say no, but there's also the possibility

26:58
of people saying no too often because of issues with self-doubt, imposter syndrome, lack of confidence, and many other factors. I say when one door closes, another one opens, but sometimes a closed door really does mean that that particular door is closed forever, so sometimes you do have to seize the moment a little. I tell you to trust that good things will come to you, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to take initiative and make things happen for yourself sometimes, too.

27:26
I talk about saying no to things that don't feel right, but sometimes the reason they don't feel right is because they require trying something new or stepping out of your comfort zone and challenging yourself a little bit. So just being mindful of the difference here and the nuance in all of these things. All that I really wanna communicate with all of this is that I believe it's possible to create a world for ourselves in which we value community over competition.

27:52
A world where it is possible for all of us to succeed and thrive and engage and enjoy life. That creative abundance is the antidote to the scarcity mindset that so many of us are stuck in. Whether you're just starting out or you're well established in your journey, I just want to say I see you and I believe in you. This world is what we make it and there really is room for all of us. Okay.

28:21
There's a lot there, and there's still so much to be talked about here, but I think I'm going to leave it here for this episode. If you've made it this far, thank you so much for listening. If you're interested in checking out my music, you can find it all on my website, caitnishimura.com. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing or leaving me a rating or review, and please spread the word to help me grow my beautiful little community even more. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.